Bret "Hitman" Hart

INTERVIEW WITH THE 'HIT MAN'

- "I have a lot of really ugly thoughts about Vince, but at the same time, I’ve always been grateful for the opportunity he did give me." It's no secret that Bret Hart doesn't like Vince McMahon, but he still sees some light that maybe one day he will go back to the WWF. In an interview with Alex Marvez of the Wrestling Observer, Hart said that he would accept an apology from Vince McMahon for the things he did to him in the past. Hart also said that maybe one day he'll be working for the
WWF again, but stuff like that doesn't happen overnight. "I would love to be someone who could induct Chris Benoit into the WWF Hall of Fame or even accept my own entry," said the former champion. It's a very interesting interview which you can check out at LiveAudioWrestling.com

The World Wrestling Federation is doing a better job of keeping Bret Hart’s legacy alive than anything he has done in the wrestling business since suffering a career-ending concussion more than two years ago. WWF owner Vince McMahon and referee Earl Hebner continue to get taunted in Canada about the decision to change a match finish and strip Hart of the WWF title during a November 1997 bout in Montreal. Fans chanted for Hart at Wrestlemania XVIII in Toronto on March 17 and then showered McMahon with cries of "You screwed Bret!" the next night during a live Monday Night Raw telecast in Montreal.

The reaction stems largely from Wrestling with Shadows, which chronicled Hart's final year in the WWF. Scared that Hart would depart to rival World Championship Wrestling while still the WWF champion, McMahon double-crossed him in the main event of the Survivor Series pay-per-view show. McMahon had Hebner claim Hart submitted to a sharpshooter and declare Shawn Michaels the new champion, which wasn't the pre-arranged end to the bout.

Wrestling with Shadows proved Hart was lied to backstage beforehand about the match finish and included footage of a woozy McMahon leaving The Hitman's locker room after being knocked out with a punch. The documentary made such an impact that fans continue to cheer for Hart despite his gradual slide into wrestling obscurity.

In the following interview, Hart discusses why Wrestling with Shadows lives on in WWF booking, his decision to decline a chance to serve as guest referee at Wrestlemania XVIII, his recent work with the World Wrestling All-Stars, and the status of his upcoming autobiography.

Q: Why do you think Wrestling with Shadows has lived on for almost five years after the fact?
Hart: “I think as much as time has marched on, people related to that because it was real. I think they can identify with me whether or not they liked me at the time. I had been around for a long time. People saw me climb up and get from one level to the next. People acknowledged that I earned it and worked hard for it. I think the documentary caught a lot of that. Anybody that watches the documentary knows I was screwed over at the end and I think they all kind of take offense at it. It sunk in a lot further than someone like (Vince) McMahon makes you want to believe. I think Vince knows full well what that documentary says about him and he hates that. The whole idea for me to referee at Wrestlemania was an attempt to legitimize everything that happened.”

Q: How surprised are you at the fan reaction Vince and Earl Hebner continue to receive in Canada?
Hart: “They deserve it. Wrestling is a funny thing. It’s based on real life. In a way, it’s sort of a rib by the fans, like they’re going to make a story line out of it whether other people have forgotten it or not … I’m kind of glad Hogan went back. Whatever differences there were with McMahon, and I’m sure there were plenty, were nothing compared to mine. A lot of people may eventually find themselves working again for Vince. I can’t really blame them for that. I’ve always loved the business and certainly put a lot of my heart in it. But for me to forgive, it’s just so hard to do that. I think they have to make a better effort first. It’s like, ‘OK, you ruined my family, killed my brother, screwed me over in front of the entire country and then humiliated me.’ I would have loved to referee Wrestlemania, but there are things that don't quite wash with me. I would love to work together with them some day and maybe there is some way to do that. But what I sense is a lack of sincerity and integrity on their side. I get a strong sense that McMahon would love to screw me over worse than he ever did. They’re constantly trying to minimize what they’ve done. There's an ongoing process to spin a different version of what happened until slowly over time the truth erodes and takes a different shape. They’ve tried to portray me as a crybaby or a guy who cannot get over it or a guy creates images in his own mind and is bitter and psychotic. At one point, I was very close with wrestlers in the company. I remember telling them they were going to reprogram how they feel about me and they would hear sh** about me, like little tiny pieces of stories about me from Vince and how they would slowly feel different about me and become less inclined to talk. I remember especially after Owen’s death that I was pretty hard-pressed to get a hold of some guys or get a return call. I’m not sure if they feared what would happen if they talked to me or if they reprogrammed me that I am now a prima donna and didn’t want to do the job for Shawn Michaels. I saw it happen to Hogan and (Randy) Savage and one wrestler after another. It was, ‘Poor Vince.’ I remember hearing all these things about Savage … How Vince was unaware that Randy had issues and he was just gone in a flash and in WCW. I saw Vince at Raw when that happened, I think we were in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania or something like that. He had a tear in his eye and I tried to be comforting. Then I see randy and he tells me a completely different story. He wanted to stay with the company and didn't want problems, but he finally realized there was no way around it and he had to go. They’ve done that with me now to where they have slowly eroded what the truth is. They would love to see me fold up and show up hat in hand and have me wrestle Howard Finkel in a tuxedo match. I think they would love to set an example by getting even with me.
“I thought what I tried to do a few weeks ago (in my Calgary Sun column) was pretty gracious on my part and I think that showed. I wanted to show that I would love to have tried to work something out. But I don't think it would have been done overnight but down the road. I said in my column that I would love to be someone who could induct Chris Benoit into the (WWF) Hall of Fame or even accept my own entry. I have a lot of really ugly thoughts about Vince, but at the same time, I’ve always been grateful for the opportunity he did give me.
“I wish sometimes that this whole thing never happened. The more I look at it, I didn’t really bring any of this on. I was just in the middle of events. I did the best I could as far as dealing with what happened. I don’t ever second-guess myself and say I wish I would have done this or that. There are so many things you can go back and sort of reevaluate, but I can say that I think I did the right thing all along. The only thing I wish is that none of these things happened or else my brother would be alive today … I had helped guide Owen’s career for years. I don’t think he hid it, either. I was pretty much consulted by Owen before any major decision. If he came to me (about the Blue Blazer entrance gimmick), I know how I am. I don't think he should have done it even with backup. When I saw Shawn Michaels come down (from the ceiling) at Wrestlemania (in 1996), Shawn told me he was terrified. I didn’t doubt it. I just know there are a lot of problems when you do something like that.”

Q: Now that Wrestlemania is over, do you think you made the right decision about not attending?
Hart: "Yeah, more so than before. An underlying concern or fear of mine is that I’ve always wondered whether they would pull a Lucy on me and pull the football away before I could kick it and that maybe they would try to humiliate me again. You can say that couldn’t happen do but they could. Anything can happen. They’re very dishonest and very slimy and have no scruples. For Vince to go out in Montreal (at a March 18 Raw episode) and say he would screw me again and again took me back to the whole feeling I had in the beginning. It was a really creepy feeling. How can I put a lot of trust in him and forgive? That’s my whole attitude.
“I would love to see things thaw out a bit and not be so tense. My grandkids all live for wrestling. If I could help them and mend some fences with Vince for them or my own piece of mind … When (the WWF) called me, I remember hanging up asking what did I want. I had the opportunity to maybe see if I can get something back that I lost from them. Maybe it was time to make peace. But again, I just found it really hard to trust in them … There was an open door for me to consider Vince in a greater light I think an apology is in order. That is not something that I would take lightly. I would accept an apology. I think they lied to me, tried to humiliate me and they were think clearly unappreciative to any loyalty I had shown to them. The documentary is real. It's all real. I felt upset and hurt and sad at the end, like I think a lot of other people did. It’s minimizing it by saying it’s part of the business. I do carry a lot of hard feelings but it’s more related to what happened to Owen and the things that transpired after his death. The match in Montreal meant nothing compared to what happen to my whole family up here. The WWF went up with its whole objective to divide and conquer the family. It wasn't just like they were trying to be kind to family members to make up for the tragedy. That wasn't the case at all. Clearly, they turned family members against each other through greed and money. Unfortunately, some of them chose to put the dollars ahead of my brother.
“And then there was the whole thing with the archives. Vince said nobody gets use of their archives and who do I think I am to ask for this stuff. I would like to be able to have the use of pictures in my book and a video. That’s all stuff we talked about long before I punched him out. We talked about it the week when I signed with WCW … This was never about money. I never ever wanted to leave the company. I always wanted to be there with him and the company. I put my heart into so many matches and that period in my life. He betrayed me in such a way that it caused me to knock him out in the dressing room and create a huge rift. He came down to the dressing room (after the Survivor Series match) solely to call my bluff. I don’t know why. Maybe he thought I would threaten to knock him out but I would not have the balls to do it. I gave him a clear warning to leave and if he didn't I was gonna knock him out. I never had a problem with what did because he clearly knew what he was doing. He got everything he deserved. If anything, he deserved me pummeling him and beating him to a pulp. But I showed enough decency to do it with one punch. Dory Funk told me a couple weeks after it happened that they had weeks and months to plan what they wanted to do and map out screwing me over, but that to react the way I did was like the perfect thing to do. I couldn't have done it any better. If I had really beaten the crap out of (McMahon), I would look bad me and it would be overdoing it. At the same time, if I back down from him and hung my head, I would have lost all face. The fact I got up and hit him one time was such a perfect thing to do. Even the fact the documentary crew didn’t film the punch but they filmed enough to tell the story was a blessing.”

Q: That being said, does anyone still care about your story today if not for Wrestling with Shadows?
Hart: “I don't think so. I don’t think there would be any story about me at all. I would just be a wrestler with a lot of gripes. I don't think anyone would ever see what happened. There’s a part in that move on the airplane when I’m flying back to Calgary when it happened and I remember thinking the documentary guy told me it was great but I thought there was no way any thing could close to telling my story. I was still fuming when I saw the first cut. But it was so overwhelming. I couldn’t believe they were able to piece the story in such a way that it was so accurate and factual.
“This is a funny thing. The documentary had actually finished shooting at the end of September (1997). They were looking for an ending and didn't really have one. It was just a documentary on Bret Hart. Instead, the documentary became all about the last day and they were never supposed to be there. They showed up with all their passes and the WWF couldn’t stop them from coming in. Vince was livid when they showed up but he couldn’t say he wanted them out because things were already not sit right between us. I remember I was miked for a different camera shot when Vince came in. I first forget that I even had it on. Vince came up and said he wanted to talk to me (about the Survivor Series match finish). I remember I was gonna take off the wire because it didn’t seem fair to go in with a wire, but then I thought I would leave it on just in case. I never attempted to catch them lying or set them up because I didn’t know they were going to screw me. I was very blind to the whole thing. It was a blessing that I didn't take that wire off. It was such an important part of my credibility that I was told one thing and another happened. You ever see the movie Gods and Monsters? God can do whatever he wants any time he want and you better learn to like it. It’s funny. Vince says that I have psychological problems. I think it’s the other way around. He’s a very warped, sick person.”

Q: When was the last time you saw the movie?
Hart: “I’ve seen it twice in the past two years. I watched it when my mom passed away and the day after Owen died. The reason I watched it was like a home movie. I wanted to hear my mom’s and Owen’s voice and see the way things used to be. While there is a lot of drama in the movie, some parts are very heartfelt with my dad and mom and Owen and the kids. I get a good sense of melancholy the last few times I’ve seen it.”

Q: You must be excited about having the chance to return to the Molson Center in August to work for Jacques Rougeau?
Hart: “Yeah. He had asked me a long time ago to work for him but I didn't want to get into it where I was terminated from WCW and then started working all over. I just wanted to be home. But with Jacques, I realize I had never been back to even walk though that building again. I’m glad to go back. This may be the last time I walk into that building and talk to wrestling fans. I don't know my longevity in that way. I don't know how long I can keep pushing myself out there without knowing what to say … I would love to go back just to see the fans in Montreal. I was there after my concussion and had a lot of tests there. Everywhere I went, I was stopped by people. I do realize that in a lot of places, even like Australia, so many people have watched the documentary that don't follow wrestling. There is a real corps of people who appreciate what happened with me and understand my position with Vince and wrestling. But I noticed the people in Montreal really connected with me on that and understand what happened and why I did what I did. Part of me loves the fact I'm going back and can close the door.”

Q: What was it like working for the World Wrestling All-Stars and do these guys have a shot at making it?
Hart: “I don't know. I thought they were in a good position to sort of be like the Ice Capades, a traveling international troop of wrestlers with some notoriety from either WCW or the WWF. A lot of places overseas don’t get a lot of American-style pro wrestling, and as long as they don’t overkill the markets, they could tour and come back. I like that. But I was totally opposed ever coming to America or Canada. They didn't have a strong enough show or talent. They couldn’t compete with the WWF and shouldn’t try. I don’t know where they’re going and what my involvement will be. I enjoyed the work I did with them. I really did, especially for someone like me that doesn’t have a lot of options because I can’t work with very many (promotions) and can’t wrestle or anything.

Q: How is your autobiography coming and when do you think it might be ready?
Hart: “I’m halfway through. I’ve probably got a lot of stuff I can weed out, because I’m writing a very detailed book. I have some very fascinating scenes and some really interesting themes about who was who and who do what. I have such an interest in the old days of the business. There really is no documented history of wrestling. The history of wrestling is really formed by Vince McMahon or people like you and Dave (Meltzer) where you sort out the details as best you can. But I don’t think anybody can understand it as well as someone who has been in the ring and been there and done that. I try to put somebody in my shoes and take them through my own experiences in the business. Also, I have a very interesting sort of backdrop as my family is a theme running through all my writing and my own personal family with my wife and children.
“With people that follow wrestling, there is a certain fascination behind the scenes of what goes on in the dressing room. I would love to bring a lot of that out in a good way. I don’t plan on writing a book that hurts a lot of people. There are enough kind of wrestling books like Missy Hyatt’s and Diana (Smith’s) book. Even Mankind, I love his book and really like a lot of the stories. But wrestling is not about getting hurt like he did. In contract to me, I pride myself in being able to talk about not getting hurt in contrast to him and the fact I would never hurt anybody I worked with. He was the same way in that regard that I know of, but certainly he hurt himself and that was the whole theme of his book. When I read it all the way through, I thought this had nothing to do with my career and my life.
“Anyway, I originally started to write about my first days in the WWF and when I started there in 1984. But I found it really difficult to keep proceeding because I kept having to go back and explain different characters, whether it was my brother-in-law or old wrestlers from Stampede like Dave Shults. Even with my family, I had to explain like 12 different members. So I scrapped everything and start over from my start in Stampede Wrestling. What I’ve written was all the stuff I thought I was never going to write about that I didn't think was important. But once I started scratching to the beginning of my career long before the WWF, it was amazing how much detail I’ve gone into. I have about 700 pages of really fascinating stories about all the names in wresting prior to the big explosion and Hulk Hogan and Wrestlemania. I think it’s a really good read. Maybe not a lot of people want to read about that, but then again, I think there are lot of people that do. I think I’m working on a second step in writing it. I’ve written about my dad and my early days and life growing up with wrestling Now, I’m in the process writing about the WWF. That will take a little while. I really do think I’ll finish about January and this time next year be done. How it comes out and what shape the book takes, I don't know. It might be all one book or come out in two or three parts. But I can say one thing. It will be a really fascinating read. I don't think anyone else has my story.
“I read Dynamite (Kid’s) book and there were so many half-truths. Diana did the same thing. She would write about some small incident that would have some granule of truth and it would become something else. I can say with mine that none of that will happen.”

Q: How much do you think this book will shape your final legacy in the business? After all, this is the only real forum you have to reach mainstream wrestling fans nowadays.
Hart: “I have to do that. The WWF is gonna erase my whole legacy. My legacy will become a best of Wrestlemania tape me against Bob Backlund. That will become my legacy, like, ‘Geez, he wasn't that good and he was sort of a trouble-maker who caused all these problems and he’s bitter because his brother died.’ They will take away everything I ever did. I’ve seen this coming for a long time unless I get in line and come crawling on my hands and knees so they can parade me around as whatever they want. I think all I have is my legacy and memories and love for the business. As long as I write the book I want to write, I don't care how well it does. It gives me a really good position to take all the time to say exactly what I want to say and set the record straight.”

Alex Marvez's weekly pro wrestling column can be found in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Denver Rocky Mountain News, Biloxi Sun-Herald and a host of other newspapers that subscribe to the Scripps-Howard News Service.

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